[VF Tuner]

Hey everyone, I'm very pleased to say that we can finally share some results of what the ND is capable of with a tune!.

To start it off, we got a message from Brian asking us for some info about the possibility to tune his Street ND. He asked if I could calibrate it on his dyno, about 6 hours away from us. Needless to say I was up for the task. Brian is an awesome guy to work with and made it very easy to get his car dialed in. After about an hour of datalogging on the street we were ready to hit the Dyno. Baseline numbers were performed that morning, before anything was done. Weather wasn't the best, but none the less we still managed some very good dyno gains. We ended with a Peak gain of 25.9HP and 25lbs torque, with some areas of the rpm range gaining over 30lbs of torque. Mods were : 91 octane, axleback-exhuast (which sounds amazing! btw)
Right away we noticed a pretty big improvement when adding our baseline settings netted us over 15WHP increases
(baseline tune results, not overlay-ed with stock. Happy to say that a single flash will put these cars at 150/150 to the wheels )

After a few more hours of tuning, we ended up with our finishing results:

Interpreting the ending dyno numbers, and the small power drop explained

First, these engines make crazy amounts of low end torque for their size!. Brian and I were both quite impressed with the wide amount of gains shown in the low end. The nice part about it is that is where the engine is almost always at cruising around town, power where you need it!
You'll notice on the Sheet there is a small drop in HP and TQ in same area (roughly 4000RPM - 6000 RPM). This wasn't caused by knock, but rather by the ignition strategy of the ecu. The ECU adds timing under high load conditions when it can. The area where there as a small drop in power was caused from the ecu not adding ignition in that particular area. Now that's not a permanent drop, the ECU is always learning and adjusting, we just didn't have the time to sit there for hours and hours until the ECU was happy with what it saw and wanted do it's ignition adding in that area. I'm sure that if the car was ran on the dyno again on another day, or a few hours later after the ECU has had more time to resolve the ignition, that would not be there. These ECU's take a bit of time to learn what they need ( trims, ignition trims, etc). The key part is ensuring that the tune uses this ignition strategy to it's advantage, not disregarding it. If the ignition is tuned near the edge where knock can occur easily, you will almost always be losing power. You want to ensure the ECU still gets has complete control over adding ignition when it wants to, how it wants to, and does not get knock when it does, which means, in laymen's terms that you might actually have to REDUCE map timing to make more power! Quite opposite of what is the "norm" !


From the data recorded during street driving, there are a few things (like AFR targets) that are directly shared between the ND and the other Chassis. Actually more than 90% of the ECU is 1:1 with the other sky-G 2.0L mazda vehicles. However, a few key things are different, which make a very big difference.

Some Immediate Pro's and Con's

PRO:

It looks like Mazda designed the stock intake VERY WELL. At no time did the intake show that it was giving any restrictions on the Dyno, and even better the car came out of the factory with it's fuel trims sitting at only 3% on Brian's ND. That alone was a big surprise for me, rarely do you see the trims being so close to perfect right out of the box. Not only does that keep your AFR's where you need them, but it expedites the calibration process.

To go even further on how critical the intake is, the trims are so close right out of the box that it causes zero load based issues like knock from incorrect load, rich tip-in on throttle, which are a big concern on the Mazda 3's and 6's.

While Mazda quotes "28MPG" highway, there is lots of room for improvement. Mazda Tuned these engines a little more aggressive, even in part throttle conditions. Some touch ups to the tune and cams and MPG numbers should go up to at least mid 30's. If anyone cares lol

The stock tune does not run pig rich. The stock tune has a very precise target AFR at full throttle, which is 12.4. A little on the richer side for N/A, but not a power killing amount of fuel. Even better is that this AFR target is controlled via Closed loop, all the way to the rev limit.

CONS:

One of the biggest issues the ND has is Throttle tip-in Knock. and it's pretty bad. Mazdas aggressive tuning strategy for these engines make them quite peppy, and can definitely make the ND move quickly even with two grown men in the car lol! But that same tune causes massive power loss when you get the tip-in knock.
Why is the tip-in knock so important? This type of knock retard has to be handled delicately because of how these ECU's handle knock is a bit different than usual, and I'll tell you this, timing reduction is not the answer, neither is fuel enrichment. It can be tuned out and I did manage to find the cause and eliminate it completely. When there is knock, the ECU will hold that knock value, if it is over a certain amount (like 2* for example) it will HOLD that ignition retard for the entire time you are at full throttle. So you will lose power from the moment you get tip-in knock, until you are off throttle, regardless of RPM. For anyone who is curious why their cars power feels inconsistent, this may be the cause.

What's even WORSE is that when the ECU knocks, not only does it reduce power throughout, but it will not use it's unique strategy of adding ignition under high load conditions, so you don't just lose power once, you continually lose power even when no actual knock is present, a pretty vicious cycle.


Brian and I encountered this tip-in knock on the dyno a couple times before I was able to completely tune it out, and the results of those pulls were absolutely abysmal! When this knock happens you can expect a pretty dramatic power drop, as much as 10HP gone everywhere! Sadly this is the strategy of the ECU and there really isn't any way around it but to tune it out.


Finally, I'm happy to say that I will be back down there with GoodWin Racing to do their 2nd ND, so we will have more results for you guys! throughout this week I will be doing more digging through the ND ECU and hope to have even better numbers!.

[ravenish]

So i'm confusing here..
Did you figure out the "tip-in knock" problem with your tune?

[VF Tuner]

Originally Posted by ravenish

So i'm confusing here..
Did you figure out the "tip-in knock" problem with your tune?

yes I did, and figured out exactly what causes it on the stock calibration. it's a relatively simple fix, but i'm not telling causes it

edited the OP to include that

[IND]

Nice work Matt, customer car / customer dyno / same day baseline, can't ask for more than that

[ravenish]

Damn. Now I'm so depending on you! Great job!!

[James33]

How will customers be able to add the tune to their car? Being in Tennessee doesn't lend itself to driving to Vegas. Also, will we be able to remove the tune and add it back if we want?

Thanks for the work! Excited about this!

[wefordus]

Yes, please explain if I can apply and remove the tune myself.

[tripjammer]

Matt is am interested...you are doing good work!

[morrisg]

Great results Matt! Glad to see you're getting a thorough understanding of the stock tune limitations and fixing them. We look forward to your efforts to successfully add more power to the ND, especially with full headers which are coming in the future. Care to make any predictions about how much more power can be found with a full long tube header? Just trying to get a feel for how much more may have been left on the table. Thanks!

[ncrx]

I don't know much about the latest mazda skyactive motors

Any reason why you didnt consider exploring beyond 6800rpms, it doesnt look like the power is totally falling off yet?



Cheers,
Nick

[Nickel]

This is impressive. This car weighs the same as the NA & NB and people chase these numbers obsessively.....The FRS/BRZ is 200hp at the crank stock and weighs 400ish pounds more.......this is actually probably close to what the FRS is putting to the wheels. Nice work.

[ravenish]

Originally Posted by ncrx

I don't know much about the latest mazda skyactive motors

Any reason why you didnt consider exploring beyond 6800rpms, it doesnt look like the power is totally falling off yet?



Cheers,
Nick

^Yes
We know its low-mid rev happy setup.
But we always want high reving sports car for our ears.

[tripjammer]

Yeah stock FR-S is anywhere from 157 HP to 165 HP to the wheels...torque way less...

This tuned ND is getting 160 ft/lbs torque to the wheels and it ain't done yet...plus this was a bad day for conditions on the dyno...

Wow!

Ok I want that exhaust and I want that tune! Hehe! Oh wait I ain't got the car yet! Come on Galaxy ace dock already!!!

[ncrx]

Originally Posted by ravenish

^Yes
We know its low-mid rev happy setup.
But we always want high reving sports car for our ears.

im actually only interested for the extra few mph at the top end for autox, not so much power, but if i can save a shift and be able to hit 60-62mph

Is there a design limit for amount of rev's the motor is capable of sustaining ? harmonics that are destructive? valve springs are not capable of stopping valve float?

I just have no knowledge about the skyactiv motors

[Nickel]

Originally Posted by tripjammer

Yeah stock FR-S is anywhere from 157 HP to 165 HP to the wheels...torque way less...

This tuned ND is getting 160 ft/lbs torque to the wheels and it ain't done yet...plus this was a bad day for conditions on the dyno...

Wow!

Ok I want that exhaust and I want that tune! Hehe! Oh wait I ain't got the car yet! Come on Galaxy ace dock already!!!

I wouldn't say it's that low, I said about. A stock FRS is putting about 172-175 to the ground, but I guess that depends on what dyno you're using. With I/H/E and a reflash, I've personally seen gains at just over 200rwhp. Not a fan of E85 but I know the motor was designed to run on anything from 91 to 98 and there are tunes for different octanes.

[morrisg]

Mazda designed the 1.5L for 7500 rpm, so there's the sports car motor from the factory. Mazda NAO (North America Operations) reportedly drove the decision to add the SkyActiv 2.0L to the mix, but this was later in the development cycle and it didn't get the sports car massage from the factory that the 1.5L did.

[tripjammer]

Originally Posted by Nickel

I wouldn't say it's that low, I said about. A stock FRS is putting about 172-175 to the ground, but I guess that depends on what dyno you're using. With I/H/E and a reflash, I've personally seen gains at just over 200rwhp. Not a fan of E85 but I know the motor was designed to run on anything from 91 to 98 and there are tunes for different octanes.

With a I/H/E and a very aggressive 93 octane tune yes over 200 HP to the wheels, and throw in E85 will get you crazy gains...

I have seen lots of stock FT86 dyno less than 165 HP...
This is a typical stock FR-S dyno
http://www.ddperformanceresearch.com...c.php?f=2&t=95


I know a tuner can do better, but this is stock...

[tripjammer]

Originally Posted by morrisg

Mazda designed the 1.5L for 7500 rpm, so there's the sports car motor from the factory. Mazda NAO (North America Operations) reportedly drove the decision to add the SkyActiv 2.0L to the mix, but this was later in the development cycle and it didn't get the sports car massage from the factory that the 1.5L did.

Has there been any dynos of the 1.5 liter? What is its torque to the wheels?

[theemike]

I am in for one in the next few weeks. It would be nice if I did it before Miatas in Boone (next week) but we are doing a dyno day and I want a good baseline.

[deepblue3]

looking at the torque curve of the frs dynos remind me of how slow the car is and the need to downshift to 3rd just to have some decent passing power on the highway.
The tuned ND torque curve is completely different where the peak power is made at the lowest torque output and the rest of the graph all have more torque than it does at peak power which means more power everywhere under the curve vs FRS even if the peak power numbers are the same.

[mayday1]

Originally Posted by deepblue3

looking at the torque curve of the frs dynos remind me of how slow the car is and the need to downshift to 3rd just to have some decent passing power on the highway.
The tuned ND torque curve is completely different where the peak power is made at the lowest torque output and the rest of the graph all have more torque than it does at peak power which means more power everywhere under the curve vs FRS even if the peak power numbers are the same.

What's with the reluctance to downshift when passing? Isn't that why you
have a manual instead of auto transmission? Even if you have the auto, won't
it kick down a gear or two when press your pedal harder?

[ravenish]

Originally Posted by mayday1

What's with the reluctance to downshift when passing? Isn't that why you
have a manual instead of auto transmission? Even if you have the auto, won't
it kick down a gear or two when press your pedal harder?

Maybe he wanted and expected v8 power.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Were any adjustments made to the DBW? Does the throttle open faster?

[Entroper]

Originally Posted by mayday1

What's with the reluctance to downshift when passing? Isn't that why you
have a manual instead of auto transmission? Even if you have the auto, won't
it kick down a gear or two when press your pedal harder?

It would stand to reason.

I also can't fathom why we're comparing a tuned ND to a stock 86.

[deepblue3]

Originally Posted by mayday1

What's with the reluctance to downshift when passing? Isn't that why you
have a manual instead of auto transmission? Even if you have the auto, won't
it kick down a gear or two when press your pedal harder?

well, for one, it's tiring having to hear the thrashy boxer engine rev high every time I want to accelerate kind of quick. Secondly, the inflexibility of the power curve makes high revs the only option which is what gets tiring. I would say even the stock ND power curve is better than the FRS where it has good torque to weight where torque is mostly used, in the mid-range.