[rotaryfan]

TRD FR-S:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2119

Subaru BRZ STI Concept:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2107


The Toyota is really leading the way in terms of looks. That's just a BRZ STI concept, but not a fan of that huge wing or any of the styling really other than the widened fenders.

Even the regular FR-S is better than the STI, and the TRD version blows it away.

[Proxima]

The December issue of Car and Driver has a pre production road test of the new Subaru and they are saying the base price will be $28,000.00.

Thank you Bernank for sinking the dollar.

There are simply too many attractive choices around this price point or below.

For my money the base stipped Camaro for around $24,000.00 with 312 horsepower would be a more attractivce choice.

If Toyburu could price the cars starting around $22,000.00 they would be much more successful in the marketplace.

[Steve Jackson]

Originally Posted by Proxima

For my money the base stipped Camaro for around $24,000.00 with 312 horsepower would be a more attractivce choice.

...if you don't mind the extra 900 lbs of pork.

[worthless4]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

...if you don't mind the extra 900 lbs of pork.

This. The Camaro is as big as my four door daily driver . Also, watching a couple of them go around the autox track I frequent, I am less than impressed. I think a smaller car that is focused on better handling would be a heck of a lot more fun to drive.

[Machiave11i]

I'm interested in the lower weight of both the FR-S (~2600 lbs) and the BRZ (~2700 lbs) but a review of the test mule was done recently for the FR-S and the reviewer said that it trounced the MX5/Miata in the fun factor but then went on to give it a 3/5 in handling.

I guess someone could make the argument that handling has nothing to do with fun but in my opinion most of the fun in a Miata IS the handling.

[bbbradley]

Originally Posted by Machiave11i

I guess someone could make the argument that handling has nothing to do with fun but in my opinion most of the fun in a Miata IS the handling.

It sure isn't power!

[fitftw]

does it really need 4 exhaust tips? This TRD reminds me of the Mugen Civic Si. Almost all show, no extra go, for a lot more dough. I'd rather get a regular FT86 and go my own route with the mods. I'm sure the aftermarket has better stuff than TRD.

[Proxima]

So what do you all think of the starting price point of $28,000.00 for the Subaru?

Doesnt the Nissan 370 Z start around $31,000.00 with an extremely competent six?

[MRGTX]

Yep...I like them all.
I hate to say this out loud, but the Toyota version looks better to me, despite being a Toyota! The quad exhaust is a bit much...but the fender vents on the Subaru are very 2005 and unattractive, IMO.

I can't wait to see these on the road. I hope they sell a million of them!

Now... Mazda could own this segment with their light-weight building experience and handling knowledge.

[The Driver]

Wow, that looks VERY nice!

[SamuraiJack]

Originally Posted by Proxima

Doesnt the Nissan 370 Z start around $31,000.00 with an extremely competent six?

If they've done it right this car should be a vastly better drive than a Z. People buying this car will understand the less-is-more approach or they'll go elsewhere. If one perceives a bigger, heavier car along with more power as an upgrade this won't be the car for them. That's why, aside from a few outliers like the Elise, the NA and NB never really had an "upgrade path" - few if any other manufacturers were even on the same philosophical page as Mazda.

Time will tell if their marketing strategy is up to spreading the word, but we have to hope; otherwise the more-is-more approach will continue to dominate and we'll soon end up with 1,000hp, three-ton "sports cars" that dwarf my 430.

[bbbradley]

Originally Posted by Proxima

So what do you all think of the starting price point of $28,000.00 for the Subaru?

Doesnt the Nissan 370 Z start around $31,000.00 with an extremely competent six?

Not sure the point you are trying to make here, the Subie will be $~3k less and offer similar performance, potentially better. I don't see that Nissan has the brand equity to command snobbery like some of the German brands, Subaru and Nissan, IMO are on the same tier in that respect.

The Nissan 6, while competent, sounds like sheer and utter a$$. I could not bring myself to own a car that sounds like that.

[worthless4]

Originally Posted by fitftw

does it really need 4 exhaust tips? This TRD reminds me of the Mugen Civic Si. Almost all show, no extra go, for a lot more dough. I'd rather get a regular FT86 and go my own route with the mods. I'm sure the aftermarket has better stuff than TRD.

I'm assuming it is just like the STi and has four tips coming out of a single can. If not, I'd assume the exhaust splits into a Y pipe with dual cans after the midpipe/resonator and each can has dual tips.

[Iceburn]

Individually, I think all of the components and specs sound good. Taken together, however, I'm less impressed. For instance, I think $28k is a reasonable price point (by itself), 200-210 HP is enough, 2600-2700 lbs. is light enough, but taken all together it seems a bit underwhelming. For $28k, I'd either like to see more power or less weight. At 200-210 HP, if it's going to weigh 2600-2700 lbs. I'd expect a lower price. Or, if it's going to have only 200-210 HP and cost $28k then it would need to weigh less for me to be interested.

All in all I think it's probably going to be a pretty good car, but it doesn't seem like it has enough going for it to make me really interested in buying one.

[Iceburn]

Originally Posted by bbbradley

Not sure the point you are trying to make here, the Subie will be $~3k less and offer similar performance, potentially better.

In what way? In terms of power to weight I expect the 370z will be vastly better (30-40%) than the Toyobaru, and the 370z's handling is a huge improvement over the 350z. Other than fuel economy I doubt the 370z will trail in any performance metric.

[fitftw]

you want less weight for $28k? Delete the rear seats and get a smaller battery to save ~100lbs

[bbbradley]

Originally Posted by Iceburn

In what way? In terms of power to weight I expect the 370z will be vastly better (30-40%) than the Toyobaru, and the 370z's handling is a huge improvement over the 350z. Other than fuel economy I doubt the 370z will trail in any performance metric.

I said potentially. The 3200 lbs vs 2600 lbs curb weight might even the playing field somewhat, though until the Toyoburaion materializes as a real, consumer product it is anyone's guess.

[90RedinFL]

Originally Posted by fitftw

does it really need 4 exhaust tips? This TRD reminds me of the Mugen Civic Si. Almost all show, no extra go, for a lot more dough. I'd rather get a regular FT86 and go my own route with the mods. I'm sure the aftermarket has better stuff than TRD.

+1 on that. I think 4 tips was a bit much even on the last BMW M3, but then at least it had a V8.

"More tips" is today's equivalent of yesterday's "coffee can tip."

[SamuraiJack]

Originally Posted by Iceburn

Other than fuel economy I doubt the 370z will trail in any performance metric.

Well there's the problem, right there. People thinking entirely in terms of numbers and "metrics" are not going to get this car at all, the same way many of them never got the Miata.

One doesn't drive via spreadsheet, yet modern marketing has conditioned us all to think almost exclusively in terms of numbers and checkboxes. Enthusiasm resides outside this paradigm.

[90RedinFL]

Originally Posted by bbbradley

The Nissan 6, while competent, sounds like sheer and utter a$$.

The competition for least appealing engine/exhaust sound is a close one between the Nissan V6 and the typical Subaru flat 4, IMO.

[ashtray]

More specs out today too. Every day for the past week has been "leak" after "leak". I like it but there's going to be nothing left for Nov 30th. And then we still have 4-6 months to wait until it's available. That's a LONG wait!

As for price - not officially announced or leaked yet. Yeah, it's short on hp for a high price. That said, theres a bunch of performance in this car. Us Miata folk more than anybody should know the value of handling and the over emphasized need for moar powah!

Interested in seeing this car in person and taking it for a spin to see if it can truly replace my NA.

[bbbradley]

Originally Posted by 90RedinFL

The competition for least appealing engine/exhaust sound is a close one between the Nissan V6 and the typical Subaru flat 4, IMO.

The only Subie flat 4s I've heard that sound atrocious are due to modified exhaust systems. Living in New England Subies are commonplace, the engines I've heard don't seem to stand out at all.

[Iceburn]

Originally Posted by bbbradley

I said potentially. The 3200 lbs vs 2600 lbs curb weight might even the playing field somewhat, though until the Toyoburaion materializes as a real, consumer product it is anyone's guess.

With a dramatically lower power to weight ratio I don't think there's even a potential chance for Toyobaru to even offer similar performance. I may be more fun to drive, but when I think "performance" I associate that with measurable traits.

[worthless4]

Originally Posted by bbbradley

The only Subie flat 4s I've heard that sound atrocious are due to modified exhaust systems. Living in New England Subies are commonplace, the engines I've heard don't seem to stand out at all.

As long as no one throws on equal length headers, I like the sound. I think it's an acquired taste, though.

[phillymiata]

I thought the actual specs leaked of 190ish HP and 150ft lbs? Starting at 2660 -2800 lbs depending on equipment?

With those specs the car becomes very close to a miata without the ability to remove the top. An NC is 168hp/140ft lb at 2450? So for an extra 200lbs you get 30hp and only 10ft lbs. Doesn't seem like much of a straight line performance jump. If the car is geared similar to a Miata they should have very similar performance. My guess is high 6 second 0-60.

When looking at the stats by comparing it to a miata the 28k price seems entirely too high to start. Similar performance, similar handling but not a convertible and more expensive? The miata is a niche. This is basically a niche of a niche. I would still give the edge to Mazda for their years and years of experience in suspension tuning. When is the last time Subaru or Toyota made a fun RWD car? 20+ years? That experience is worth something.

After the initial fan bois buy them I would expect between Subaru and Toyota they sell about 2k per year. It is a relatively low powered and handling focused sports car. Remind anyone of something (cough RX8 cough). An RX8 with a boxer vs rotary.