[LA Bob]

I don't know if this has already been posted here, but I couldn't find it. It relates to the action being taken by Cosworth with respect to Cosworth supercharged NC engine failures:

Read 'em and weep.

[black&blue]

WOW! What's interesting to me is what effect does this have on other FI Manufacturers? I think this substantiates grounds for possible lawsuits for other companies whos customers suffer from blown motors. Be on the lookout!

[BassfreakBRG]

Yowsah!

[nicknick]

Woah! That indicates a lack of thorough testing by Cosworth and they are supposed to be reputable?

[Dan]

Cosworth? Irreputable because Mazda makes a weaknut engine?

[MikeyTX]

Why isn't it on a Cosworth letter head ? What is your source for the letter ?

[Dopey]

I just had a look on the Cosworth site and they are still advertising the NC supercharger, with no reference to any issues.

J

[John Starke]

I agree. It is strange that it is not on Cosworth letterhead.

[MikeyTX]

Personally, I think it's a scam !

[jimbonnie]

Originally Posted by Dan

Cosworth? Irreputable because Mazda makes a weaknut engine?

Are you suggesting that Mazda should have designed their engines to accept Cosworth superchargers? How about BEGi's products, FM's products, or my own, for that matter?

On the other hand the NA and NB motors are pretty tough little suckers.

[Jim Boemler]

Guys, this has been discussed at length -- here, at Goodwin, and in England. We're all still waiting to see what the "upgrade" consists of, but there's little else to say until then.

jim

[John Starke]

I E-mailed Cosworth for confirmation of the letter. They are closed until Monday though so I will have to wait on their answer.

[nicknick]

Originally Posted by Dan

Cosworth? Irreputable because Mazda makes a weaknut engine?

Yes Dan, 'cause if that letter is real, then Cosworth did not design the SC properley for the existing NC, although it maybe ok for the NC MK11.

[lucifuge]

...and what cover do people have who have had it installed already? What if something "gives" in the engine AFTER the SC is taken off. I.e. damage that had already begun when it was isntalled. nasty.

*IF* this turns out to be a legit response, then it comes down to a lack of appropriate testing and that's a very scary thought from such a quality company.

[sandor]

The point is not that they made a mistake. I do not think that they did. They gave us what we wanted and begged for, for years. The point to take away from this is that they are going to go above and beyond what is expected and make things right. And this is even though most people with any common sense would see that if you mod a motor you are doing so at your own risk. But, I think that because they said it will be a plug and Play system, they feel like they should fix the issue.

Also, from what I understand, Cosworth put over 20K miles on their test vehicle before the product went on sale. What they did not know at the time was that the European version of the engine would be equipped with different internals. And that the Mazda ECU had so many different versions and needed to be programmed separately and using a unique map for each type. So even though they may have worked out the tuning on their version, the other 19 or 20 versions were still not cracked and thus resolved.

But, what do you expect from the FIRST company to take a shot at putting a FI on the new 2.0. Now that they did all the hard work and R&D, the other companies are coming up with their versions of the system. I am just happy to have the power and am content with the level of integrity that Cosworth has shown us.

[lucifuge]

Originally Posted by sandor

.... What they did not know at the time was that the European version of the engine would be equipped with different internals. And that the Mazda ECU had so many different versions and needed to be programmed separately and using a unique map for each type. ......

But do you not take the letter as a general statement? ie no matter where you live, remove it? If European cars were the only issue then it would a Euro warning only.

[sandor]

Yes, it is basically legalese. A CYA, if you will. But, they are rectifying the situation and are going to make things right. Unlike the other companies that are offering FI for the NC. I am willing to bet that any of the others would just say it was either installed wrong or not driven correctly of something like that and you would be on your own.

[Sad, little man]

Originally Posted by lucifuge

...and what cover do people have who have had it installed already? What if something "gives" in the engine AFTER the SC is taken off. I.e. damage that had already begun when it was isntalled. nasty.

*IF* this turns out to be a legit response, then it comes down to a lack of appropriate testing and that's a very scary thought from such a quality company.

Uh, you mean the damage resulting from almost doubling the power that your engine was engineered to make? Forgive me if I don't shed a tear over someone blowing up their engine after they supercharge it. It just comes with the territory.

[lucifuge]

Originally Posted by Sad, little man

Uh, you mean the damage resulting from almost doubling the power that your engine was engineered to make? Forgive me if I don't shed a tear over someone blowing up their engine after they supercharge it. It just comes with the territory.

What your saying is a fair statement in normal circumstances. But if they effectively admitting fault, then isn't that different?

[LA Bob]

Um, PLEEZ go over to Good-Win-Racing.com and get to the Mazda forum there and you will find a multiple page thread discussing this issue.

So far, as a still-interested-in-light-of-current-issues Cosworth SC buyer as soon as they get it a CARB ticket, I have to say that I see the main responsibility for the Mazda engine with the guys who made it. Who knows besides Mazda how many 2.0 engines MAZDA blew up before they sold the first 2006? And limited the horsepower and torque and set up the ECU for a comfort zone? I could see where late testing resulting in blown motors could result in a softer-tuned engine delivered for the first two or three years until a more robust "upgrade" could be added. I'm not saying that actually happened, but they did show up for 2009 with forged crank, rods, pistons, beefed up wrist pin bosses, yada yada, now didn't they?

If it wasn't BROKE, why FIX IT? They have even made complete 2009 2.0 crate motors with all the new internals available for, get this, $2995.00!!!! Less than half the cost of a Cosworth kit!!! Pretty generous of Mazda if nothing was wrong with the older motors.....

Now, if it were that this scenario was sniffed by Cosworth as even MAYBE being the truth, then their offer of free parts, free dismount of the SCs, free engine rebuild, free re-install of everything after the bad parts are replaced (or "upgraded" if you prefer) looks very much to me like a company with a VERY important international reputation -- and a top drawer clientele in a gazillion race and speed shops -- doing its level best, without panicking, to stand behind its products and support its customers.

That makes sense to me. There are maybe 50 NC installs worldwide so far, a fairly small number. And, there may be that many guys like me in California alone waiting to see how Cosworth works through this mess and still intend to buy a kit when Cosworth gets its CARB ticket punched.

The cost to Cosworth of making the NC mess right, even if it's NOT their fault, would be far less than the potential cost of eating the R&D and manufacturing on the NC kits, not to mention the damage to their reputation if they left their existing NC buyers swinging in the wind.

I knew the risk before I decided to buy the first CARB-approved Cosworth kit I could get my hands on. I knew that FI blows up stuff. I knew the factory warranty on my car would be toast, and I knew that it wouldn't just be Mazda hopping on a technicality as an excuse to tear it up.

Speed kills. Hopefully by the time I get my kit, the supercharger in it will have to work a lot harder to kill my new, improved Mazda motor.

[Johan Eriksson]

Originally Posted by jimbonnie

Are you suggesting that Mazda should have designed their engines to accept Cosworth superchargers? How about BEGi's products, FM's products, or my own, for that matter?

On the other hand the NA and NB motors are pretty tough little suckers.

A bit apples and oranges there - the NC (MZR) engine is a standard engine in every way, used in lots and lots of standard, everyday vehicles, and (except for the 2.3 DISI turbo) not in any particularily powerful configurations. So it can safely be assumed that it has only "regular" margins for durability etc.

The 1.6 and 1.8 engines in the NA (and subsequently the NB, since they are closely related) came from Mazda's then rally program (where the engine could easily crank out 300 hp, with good reliability) - they removed the turbo but kept everything else, leaving them with an engine that were seriously over-engineered for the power output in question (116-146 hp).

[Jim Boemler]

Originally Posted by lucifuge

What your saying is a fair statement in normal circumstances. But if they effectively admitting fault, then isn't that different?

They're not (at least yet) "admitting fault". They are "accepting responsibility", which is a subtle but significant difference. The words do matter.

jim

[Dan]

Originally Posted by nicknick

Yes Dan, 'cause if that letter is real, then Cosworth did not design the SC properley for the existing NC, although it maybe ok for the NC MK11.

If that were true, then all turbo kits would be limited to 10-12 psi. Design has nothing to do with it, it's the amount of boost created. Just lower the boost level.

Of course, this is all assuming that owners who go FI are taking personal responsibility for modifying their engine and taking the risks of positive boost instead of Cosworth having to write silly letters like this. The nature of 90% of owners out there is to always want more power. Should FM make the same disclaimers?

All Cosworth needs to do is make a larger pulley.

d

[sandor]

Originally Posted by Dan

If that were true, then all turbo kits would be limited to 10-12 psi. Design has nothing to do with it, it's the amount of boost created. Just lower the boost level.

Of course, this is all assuming that owners who go FI are taking personal responsibility for modifying their engine and taking the risks of positive boost instead of Cosworth having to write silly letters like this. The nature of 90% of owners out there is to always want more power. Should FM make the same disclaimers?

All Cosworth needs to do is make a larger pulley.

d

Again, I believe that the only reason Cosworth feels responsible for this issue and is stepping up to the plate, is because of the promise that it is a "PLUG AND PLAY" system designed for the "STOCK" 2.0 engine. However, if they would be a Less than reputable company, they could get out from under the whole thing by just saying that the reason all these people are having the problems that they are having is because pretty much none of us have "STOCK" motors. Most of us have headers and mid pipes with different exhausts and that makes it no longer "STOCK." But, they are Cosworth and so they are standing behind their product like a Company with Integrity should.

Oh, and the boost that is put out by the Cosworth is 8 PSI. I know I have heard that at least one of the turbo guys was pushing 10 PSI in his before he dialed it down. I just hope that he did not stress his internals too bad in the process.

[Dan]

Sandor, i understand completely with what you're saying, and agree 110%. Cosworth is an outstanding company, my only issue is those folks who are stating that they didn't do proper research etc. etc. blah blah blah. The engine failures, i'm sure, were due to over-aggressive tuning. 8psi isn't enough on its own to kill an engine, but for those that are trying to get every ounce of performance and having the ECU tuned with aggressive timing and fuel, those are the ones pushing the envelope and blowing up engines. 8psi is simply a mechanical number that won't bend rods. But mess with ignition timing and it's a different story. Now, is Cosworth responsible for the fuel and ignition zones? I don't know, I haven't done the research on how the engine management is provided/tuned, but if it is, then their fix is simply to reprogram the E.M. with milder settings.

d